Dooku/Kylo Tournament Winning Tier 1 Deck 1.0

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• 1.0

I really appreciate the talking point about how slow It Binds All Things can be. Playing against my wife's Jango/Veers, I have at most 3 turns till my first character is dead, so equipping quick with Enrage makes sense.

I fortunately have all the listed to make this deck, and will try it out tonight and see how it goes. Blessing to you Tiny, great work here.

I've been playing a very similar list for awhile now and just took a tournament with Kylo/Dooku as well. I do however run It binds all things for those few games that my holocrons are buried at the bottom of my deck.

I am curious however to experiment with Force Strike. Although to be honest I have felt a lot lately the biggest thing I am missing with this deck is dice mitigation. Usually mid to late game I have all my upgrades out and am just dumping cards left and right but I guess its not so bad with Dooku, just wish I had something in my hand that could mitigate a little more often.

I hate this characters dice for aggro... Still thinking this deck need some adjustments... Dont see Force Choke in it, also holocrons made it slow... Need to be more quick and some more removals... Use it in like 8 games and lose 6 at least.

@ringokiddit's hard for me to even conceive of this deck without Sith Holocron. If nothing else, it makes your sabers cheaper. I would certainly be interested though in hearing your results without it.

@tokyo0709I would also love the deck to have more mitigation. I'm just not convinced there are any more cards worth putting into the deck. Force Strike is still a card I am evaluating. It is unexpected and has won outright a few games. But it also occasionally feels awkward. I think overall though its impact is larger to warrant further testing.

@TinyGrimes I think that is probably true about the mitigation. I'm thinking that after next set, this same style of deck will see play but with a bit more if we get some better blue mitigation.

Force Strike also was a finisher last night for me in a final round but most the rest of the rounds I felt like I didn't want to give up the resource early/mid game due to trying to build up my board state. Have you considered bringing it in as a 1 off since its more of a late game finisher?

How does Holocron make Sabers cheaper? By not having to pay for abilities?

I understand what you say @TinyGrimes (except the holocrons saber thing). Sadly holocrons are an autoinclude in EVERY SINGLE villain force deck... Im not saying is broken, but autoinclude is ugly to me. Personally haye the way of play of holocrons, but thats just my opinion. Aditionally holocrons makes you play slower, and this character dices without upgrades are very weak... Im not saying is a bad deck, but the last adjustments...

Maybe if you obviosly keep holocrons qould like to add again a second copy of Mind probe and others abilities instead...

@amustoePlay Holocron, get free ability, overwrite with Saber.

@ringokiddI feel like you are making argument for holocron not against it. It's dice are weak and it needs upgrades. Ok Holocrons does that for you. I agree that I wish it was not an autoinclude. But I think wanting to not play Holocron is not the same as the deck being better without it.

@TinyGrimesyep, im agree with you... Thanks for your write ups!

This won a tournament with a 2-1 record? Call me crazy but that's not enough of a backlog to warrant calling this a tier 1 deck. If you're going to slap a tier 1 label on something, it better be consistent and ALWAYS tough to deal with. This deck is not that, and I've faced it a lot since launch.

Let's see this list take some better flights before making hyperbolic statements.

This is definitely a tier 2 list at best - it's feast or famine. Mind Probe and keep up the damage race, or not. Sith Holocron and keep up the upgrade race, or not. Immobilize has always been a 'meh' card at best, and with things hitting the meta like It's a Trap, All In, and Nowhere to Run, it's a card I am never really afraid of. Sure. Blank my die out. Remove yours. The shields can be nice, but since this deck has damage output problems, it's not slotted well even at 2 cost.

This deck is heavily control oriented in a not-control-friendly meta.

@licasanovaI think there was a misunderstanding. I was simply stating results from last night. It was won several events and has a very high win pct. over about 50 games. I consider this a rather aggressive deck with control pieces. I would in fact call this the most consistent deck in the meta. What it lacks is the explosion that you can find in other decks. Your summary of the deck seems to imply that you have very little experience with the deck.

@licasanova The fact that you think its a trap and nowhere to run are tier 1 in the meta discounts anything you have to say. That doesnt even take into account that you dont think Dooku kylo is tier 1 which is widely known as Tier 1.

It sounds like your local player base is bad and has scewed your view on the game or you just have no experience in this game.

You should also know what random deck you are deciding to comment on and who it belongs to. So before you reply " i won xyz tourneys listen to me" know your audience and what level they are on.

I've played with and against these variants plenty. I stand by my points. Some of your earlier comments up top seem to back up my points as well.

If my opponent sees no Holocron, it's not a tough deck at all simply due to the Blue Upgrade prohibitive cost curve and low damage output from Kylo and Dooku. As such, aggressive is not the word I would use for it. Holocron is slow, and subsequently other blue pieces (Throw, Immobilize, Choke) are slow and reactionary, probably the opposite of aggressive. Sure, you have a few sabers and some tricks, but I've sat across from opponents with this list starved for resources - you're not going to be able to do everything you want to do .... unless you see a Holocron.

Not to argue, but I actually think you're the one who has little experience with it, to use your own phrase. When Mind Probe hits the table, you then get the burst to compete with the real aggressive lists. But playing those expensive Sabers, and then having money for control and/or No Mercy doesn't happen much with this deck.

What it does do well is control through heavy credit disrupt, good, timely discard plays with Power of the Force, and mitigate with the the staple Blue Ups, giving you a chance to whittle away at a select character and try to land and resolve your specials, or maybe get some lucky melee sides (doesn't happen that much). When I see people play this deck that way, they can slowly mount a mid to late game grab through early control - if Kylo lives past turn 2.

Tier 1 decks to me don't rely on a certain card to have consistency. They are just consistent. Sith has always been feast or famine on that Holocron. What I like about Vader Raider is that it really doesn't need the Holocron to punish you, because Vader is a beast.

@Elic where did I say those cards were tier 1? I said they are starting to show up around the meta.

@Elic I also think I presented my view of this deck rather clearly. But lease, attack my knowledge again, and insult my meta without any prior knowledge of each. Also, did you make an account just to post that? :)

I made an assumtion about your meta based on your opinion which is dead wrong. Amd before you say its an opinion, an opinion based on incorrect facts is flat incorrect. A random commentor on destinydb holds little weight to anything. In fact this is a giant waste of time. I simply pointed out that maybe ypu should know your audience before posting your incorrect statements, As you are posting to a group who has won more games largest events then most will ever participate in.

Also the fact that those cards are in your meta is evidence that your meta and or play area is subpar

@licasanova If i have time to pick apart everything you said wrong when I get home I will do so. I look forward to it. Mind probe best burst??? No mercy rarely gets used??? Just wow

@licasanovaWhen I play this list, Holocron is not a must have card. Getting free upgrades is great, and borderline broken. But the goal is to load up the character not getting targeted with lightsabers. Yes they are expensive. However, you have Enrage to help with that early, as well as 4 dice with resources. Additionally, you can play 2 cost force powers and overwrite them later. It seems like you have played against people who play the deck quite differently. Having said that, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I won't be arguing this point any further. I have over 50 games of experience with the deck, and my data tells me that it is tier 1.

@licasanova I play a very similar list quite often and not getting Holocron hasn't sunk me yet. I've won plenty of games without it, they've been a bit tighter but just fine.

I couldn't get this deck to work against my wife's Jango Veers. In fact, I got blown out of the water with Kylo dead early round 3. I really miss the cheap yellow control cards with Vader/Raider + Backup Muscle/Hunker Down. I still need more play experience though.

@TinyGrimes that's fair, and I'm certainly doing just that - presenting a counter view. No worries.

@Elic You're welcome to pick apart whatever you want, but seem to be reading what you want from my comments, rather than what I've said. Feel free to counter, I'll read what you have to say (and not attack you). I don't believe comments on here and the opinions of people are a waste of time. I love discussing the game and am not afraid to hide my opinion if I feel differently from others.

Also didn't KOR just feature the Flyfishing deck variant that runs IAT? Also there are Lukebar builds that run All In to great effect. You're hastiness seems illogical. But please, share your view of your meta, I don't mind.

@tokyo0709 Thanks for the info. I think this discussion will have me picking this up again tonight to reevaluate.

I like these characters , I have most of the cards , but no Kylo Saber :( This is really annoying not having access to all the cards.

My Hero blue decks are also not quite as effective as other peoples because I don't have "One with the Force" :(

Can this deck do Ok without the Kylo Sabers ?

Not seeing Holocron round 1 is a big deal, I understand people saying "I don't need it to win" while not inaccurate are also down playing the level of power it provides to this resource starved list. I don't feel this deck is tier 1 but I am opposite coast of Tiny I am sure our Meta is extremely different.

@Keith Yes it can, you could build this and test it without Kylo Saber and get a great feel for how it plays as if you just didn't draw the kylo saber and then slot them in when you acquire them. If you want the best version of this deck you do need kylo saber.

I have been running a similar list for the past week or two now. I haven't tried Immobilize, but I have thought about it considering it's utility to provide a little extra dice control, which lacks in mono blue. There are cards for mitigation, but they are "soft" considering they are mostly situational like feel your anger. How has that upgrade worked out for you? I also have to agree with krzykoopa on both of his comments. Without Sith Holocron round 1 this deck really loses power. It has a lot of expensive upgrades as well as 2 resource costs sides from its character dice. I feel it lacks diversity in the way this deck can be played. It is VERY straightforward, and the only thing that can really catch your opponent off guard is a No Mercy. But even then, someone who is familiar with mono blue should will expect the No Mercy play and be aware of your resources at all times, as well as your hand size. It is a Top Tier 2 deck atm imo. It lacks multiple pathways to victory

I thought I would briefly address Immobilize. I have really shifted my thoughts on this card. I used to love it as soft control. However, too many decks are happy to reroll with 4 cards anyway. So I then thought the card was useless. Now I think of it as a card that is either free (from Holocron) or a ramp into a Saber. While accomplishing that goal, it give you a few shields, and maybe just maybe there is a moment where it works as a control card. But my theory is free shields is pretty darn good for 2.

@TinyGrimes Just curious. What are your thoughts on this deck vs Vader/eKylo? They play very similarly but I'm assuming you favor this over Vader/eKylo?

@tokyo0709More and more I really don't like single Vader die decks. They just seem too easy to control.

I ran this deck last weekend at a small 8 person swiss and came 2nd overall with 2-1 Win/Loss. First I beat a eVader/eRaider at the star even by making some mistakes however the opponent was young and also made some mistakes. Second round was a loss to another eVader/eRaider, this opponent ended up coming first with 3-0. His hand was very heavy dice manipulation and beat me by a number of points. Third, was a eLeia/eAkbar deck which did a lot of shields and focus. Intimidate was used to full effect on Leia and removed three shields and then I killed her in a few rounds. I ended up killing Akbar him with an 8 Melee roll. Enrage was also good as I just took the shields off Dooku to gain some resource. Nice deck... probably be playing it for a whiles now.

I am currently experimenting with classic mono blue sith build (ie all the usual cards for dual sith deck plus 2x It Binds All Tings and Power of the Force), however with eVader/Nightsister pairing. This seems to me really underestimated black horse list, same as i.e. Jango + 2x Trooper. Any experience with testing this team? I feel that it is explosive in the same way as Vader/Raider, however, the upgrades gameplay is much more consistent like in the dual Sith gameplay, as you really do not need the Holocrons to be scary and you can play some of the upgrades rightaway to Nightsister as she is Blue.

Not very effective on TTS...Gonna try sometime in live game...

How would you fit Boundless Ambition into this if you were to? Curious, I have been playing this as well, and feel like it could use at least one copy of it (hoping for 2) but really cannot figure out what to cut for it.

I went 3-1 in a tournament with a very similar deck recently. I lost to a very good player with Jango/Veers. It was down to the last couple activations and he just got what he needed before I did. I also had limited time playing the deck before the tournament so that may have had something to do with it as well. A 3 upgrade Dooku (especially some sabers in there) is ridiculously good.

This deck, and similar K/D builds, are very good.

I've been playing a list that is almost this one; I just have two Mind Probes and no Force Choke, and I have Binds instead of Enrage. I do very well with it. I win events in my local meta, which is large and active. My win percentage is high.

It handles pretty much anything. Jango decks, QG/R, Phasma lists, Han/Rey. It's just consistent. Not getting either a Holocron OR a Binds in the first two rounds can suck, but I find that even though that feels bad, I do generally catch up.

I think it's a deck that rewards good play. It’s kind of as good as the pilot. Those who don’t think this deck is Tier 1 just haven’t seen the right build in the right hands. And that’s okay. Destiny is a game where you often don’t know how powerful something is until you see it in action.

That said, I do find I have a Vader/Raider problem, and that’s the main reason I’m posting.

How it can be that I can have no problem polishing off the vast majority of Jango decks I face, but I always feel iffy when I face off against Vader/Raider, I do not know. If anyone has insight I'd love it. Maybe it's just me. Maybe Vader's in my head. I don't know. Lol. My only theory is that Vader's discard really short-circuits Count Dooku's value (his ability), since with just 4 cards a turn it's a lot harder to play cards, reroll, AND discard for shields. So maybe Vader’s ability is just that little bit more effective against Dooku. Does anyone else find that this deck’s weakness is Vader/Raider, or am I the only one?